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[Joel]

But it's okay that they didn't have a warrant and held an innocent family at rifle-point, because they were looking for somebody who might - or might not - have had an (gasp!) illegal gun!

The events leading up to officers arriving at Celis' home began earlier Saturday. Murrieta officers received word that a black sport utility vehicle ---- with automatic weapons and other guns inside ---- was parked in front of a Temecula home. The report from their Temecula counterparts indicated that officers believed the vehicle belonged to an at-large parolee, who was listed as living at the house next door to the Celises in Murrieta.

When officers arrived on Eugenia around 9 p.m. Saturday, they thought that the man they were looking for was armed and dangerous. They counted the houses from the corner of Mapleton Street and Eugenia Lane and believed that the numbering sequence of the houses on the street indicated that Celis' house was the right address, although the darkness may have made it difficult to check the exact number on the house, Davenport said.

"They couldn't light it up with a flashlight to verify the numbers, because that would put them at a tactical disadvantage," he said.

[C.G.]

Typical pig policy -- shoot first, ask questions when nobody's alive to answer them.  Thankfully, they didn't shoot this time, but it sounds like they were hovering on the brink of a fatal fuck-up.  I hope Mr. Celis gets an attorney, and I hope all the cops rot in prison, but they won't.

[Jac]

It's a perfectly legitimate mistake, Your Honor... pigs can't count.

[Docliberty]

Yet another need for that "speechless" emoticon.

[RagnarDanneskjold]

But, hey, the SCrOTUS (well, a majority of them) swear that cops have a newfound interest in the Bill of Rights. No one would exercise a no knock warrant at the wrong address.

I'm almost ready to give myself a lobotomy. Sometimes I think being an intelligent human is a serious disadvantage. I don't want to know all this "stuff".

[Joel]

Well, now, to be fair they did knock.  It wasn't a "no-knock warrant", it was a "no-warrant knock". 

Then they stuck a rifle muzzle up the nose of the guy who answered the door.

[Bear]

A couple of questions -

A) What recourse would there have been if they had been at the right house, but based the
raid on bad information (say, from a paid informant, or a vindictive neighbor)?

What recourse is there that there was no warrant served?

Bear

[RagnarDanneskjold]

What recourse would there be if you took them all out with some sort of very serious home defense weaponry (nothing forbidden by the Geneva convention, mind you)?

[enemyofthestate]

What recourse would there be if you took them all out with some sort of very serious home defense weaponry (nothing forbidden by the Geneva convention, mind you)?

LIke Cory Maye did?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/pauljacob/2006/04/30/195613.html

[Bear]

Suppose you are awakened in the night by a mistaken no-knock raid.
You shoot a cop in a genuine case of self defense. Once you've realized
the scope of the f***-up, do you lay down arms in the hope they will let you live,
or do you try to shoot your way out in the hopes of living a little longer?

This is a serious question.

Bear

[Joel]

I've asked myself that question, along with numerous variations, for a long time.  I've a feeling there's only one way I'll ever be confident I know the answer.

[Bill St. Clair]

If I ever find it necessary to shoot a cop, I will either go into full war-on-cops mode or I will hide. Not sure which. I hate to smear all cops with such a broad brush, but I've learned that they're a gang that supports their own, right or wrong, so killing one of them, no matter how justified, turns me into an enemy to them all. Wish it weren't so.

[Bear]

If I ever find it necessary to shoot a cop, I will either go into full war-on-cops mode or I will hide. Not sure which. I hate to smear all cops with such a broad brush, but I've learned that they're a gang that supports their own, right or wrong, so killing one of them, no matter how justified, turns me into an enemy to them all. Wish it weren't so.

Bill, John,

I think you're both right. There's also another, pragmatic, twist to this: While the police have been militarized, they aren't real soldiers.
Real soldiers expect armed conflict. It's the job. Cops believe that they are an embodiment of rightful  authority, and that no one
has a right to resist. Based on this, I would think their reactions are going to be different when things fall apart.

While no one wants one of their own to get shot, the soldier expects it will happen, and is prepared to take prisoners. The cops'
attitude (I'm guessing) is, "How dare they resist! SOBs shot Harry! Kill them!"

My hunch is that if you've shot one, you have a better chance of being taken alive, say,  by the 82nd Airborne than by the local cops.

Bear

[dervish]

Suppose you are awakened in the night by a mistaken no-knock raid.
You shoot a cop in a genuine case of self defense. Once you've realized
the scope of the f***-up, do you lay down arms in the hope they will let you live,
or do you try to shoot your way out in the hopes of living a little longer?

This is a serious question.

Bear

I don't trust the system, and I've been in the grips of authority before.  Plus, I figure I'll get death anyway, if I'm not executed on the spot (and there are things worse than death that I fear happening to me, too). 

Thus, I'm inclined to shoot it out, if it had reached the point of accidentally shooting a cop.  But my intention would be more to escape, if possible, than "take as many with me as possible."  And if it's only like a couple of cops, I think I'd stand a chance at it, especially if they mistook me for someone else to begin with.  I got enough BOBs and the like, and not only in my home (in case anything should ever happen to my home, like it getting burned down, destroyed, declared a crime scene, etc.)  That, and other things, encourage me to try to escape.  But if cornered, I'd take what I could, though I'd probably save the last bullet for myself.  As I say, there are worse things than death out there, and I've already tasted it when in a correctional facility before.


An odd experience I had a few weeks ago (I think about a month).  I had gotten into a really dark mood, and this was agitated by friends being harrassed by cops, and more reports of police brutality and acting like murder squads.   

Anyway, I walked down to the beach.  I was in such a dark place that I simply went to sit out there.  One the way there, a cop drove past me and she stared at me hard (which is unusual, despite my creative fashion sense), and after blinking at the realization of this, stared back.  At that moment I made a snap decision, and it was so certain that I don't doubt that if she stopped and was the least bit rude or intimidating, 1 or both of us were going down in a hail of gunfire right away.  My mood was so dark that I didn't really care--I was even mildly philosophical about it.  I don't think I was obvious because I had intentionally hidden my inner-self before I even went outside, though it's possible a cop might've seen something in my face or walk that other people would've missed.

I don't know if she caught how dangerous I was or not. I don't know if I looked somewhat like someone they were after. After she got past me aways, she finally turned away and speeded up. 

I hadn't thought about it til now, but I wonder if she was done scoping me out.  About 5 minutes later I had climbed down to the beach (whereas most people will find a public ramp or steps going down, I'll just climb down the rocks--it would've taken me another 5 minutes to find a ramp to go down, if I were like most people), and could've easily been missed because of that (there are enough businesses and residences around there, too, and I wasn't dressed for the beach, so it's possible the beach wasn't even thought of, if they were looking for me).  I didn't return home until it was dark (I spent some time watching the stars, too), which was over 2 hours later.  Maybe it was a brush with death for both of us that just didn't manifest for some reason, who knows?

I do wonder why she was scoping me out so intensely, though.  At least I haven't seen her again since then, and it's been about like a month. 


Of course, that's just one time. I do expect time, moods, circumstances, and a bunch of other variables determine what I'd actually do.  Heck, even what I friggin' had to eat in the last few hours would probably make a difference.



(Can you imagine if only one thing were to change wiht the police, and that's that they wore uniforms that marked them as belonging to another nation, or even the UN?  I wonder how people would react to them then?).

[merlin419]

Southern California cops have never proved to be that smart. Wannabes like the ones in Temecula are jealous that there aren't any cop shows on TV about them so they aren't the cream of a dubious crop. They also have that Holier Than Thou attitude equal to Papal infallibility also self anointed.

The change in uniforms regardless if it's a different country, county, or self appointed group will still have the sheeple bowing down to them as they passed. At work late at night the local cops come to the store both city and county cops. The city ones go into the coffee shop, buy their cup (not sure of that), stay there or leave right away. The county mounties wander the store talking to the workers and checking out the customers wandering the store.


Roomie and I have had that discussion before about if a door get broken in and shooting starts..the other will also begin firing into the group breaching the door..just two vets, armed and ready to be tried by 12 not carried by 6.